Comments on: Why The Road To Climate Catastrophe Is Paved With Cheap Flights http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/ Online travel magazine dedicated to exploring travel in the 21st century. Offering travel news, compelling interviews, online travel tools, and more. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:40:43 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Suzanne http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-94835 Suzanne Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:46:42 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-94835 Really, Chris, if you're going to talk the talk, you really need to walk the walk. I don't buy your rationalizations for air travel. What's your big hurry in moving across the planet? Everyone is in a rush. Everyone thinks they're entitled to travel wherever they want, whenever they want. Some of us want to halt global warming, but it seems the only ones really committed, umm, wait, I can't think of anyone really committed. Even the Dalai Lama flies all over the world. Really, Chris, if you’re going to talk the talk, you really need to walk the walk. I don’t buy your rationalizations for air travel. What’s your big hurry in moving across the planet? Everyone is in a rush. Everyone thinks they’re entitled to travel wherever they want, whenever they want. Some of us want to halt global warming, but it seems the only ones really committed, umm, wait, I can’t think of anyone really committed. Even the Dalai Lama flies all over the world.

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]]> By: Devil’s Advocate: Six Reasons Why Foreign Travel is Unethical http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-80258 Devil’s Advocate: Six Reasons Why Foreign Travel is Unethical Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:13:19 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-80258 [...] Travel is, almost by its very nature, bad for the environment. [...] [...] Travel is, almost by its very nature, bad for the environment. [...]

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]]> By: Tim Patterson http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-57923 Tim Patterson Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:32:19 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-57923 Excellent discussion on this article. Thanks everyone, for weighing in. Marilyn, you wondered why more climate change spokes people aren't changing their high-impact lifestyles. Me too. I can't wait until BNT/Matador (and perhaps Natl. Geo too?) are a global community of people living and working in adobe huts and bamboo solar-equipped bungalows in the foothills of every mountain range in the world. I hope that's what the post-oil future looks like. Excellent discussion on this article. Thanks everyone, for weighing in.

Marilyn, you wondered why more climate change spokes people aren’t changing their high-impact lifestyles. Me too. I can’t wait until BNT/Matador (and perhaps Natl. Geo too?) are a global community of people living and working in adobe huts and bamboo solar-equipped bungalows in the foothills of every mountain range in the world.

I hope that’s what the post-oil future looks like.

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]]> By: Chris LaRoche http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-57921 Chris LaRoche Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:47:44 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-57921 Thank you everybody for your comments and input. As for the figures and numbers cited in my article, I gotta be the first to admit that the numbers swamped me. I'm horrible at math as is, but it's extremely difficult to consistantly find good numbers on the impact of air travel on global warming: be it projected growth to the amount of CO2 emitted, everyone cuts the pie differently. Having said that, I wanted to share an important source made since writing this. The most important thing (movie, show, website, explanation) I've seen in a long time is www.StoryofStuff.com. It very clearly connects the dots between environmental degradation, political corruption/voter apathy, corporate control and our collective moral decay. Think of it as the non-sci-fi version of the Matrix or They Live, laying out "the meaning of life" in consumer-driven USA (Canada, I think you count here too). Second is a blog I've been following: No Impact Man, noimpactman.typepad.com about trying to live with no impact. And just to respond to Jacob's comment questioning global warming (though my apologies for not reading your citations beforehand), I'll link to here: http://noimpactman.typepad.com/blog/2008/03/why-the-debate.html Thank you everybody for your comments and input.
As for the figures and numbers cited in my article, I gotta be the first to admit that the numbers swamped me. I’m horrible at math as is, but it’s extremely difficult to consistantly find good numbers on the impact of air travel on global warming: be it projected growth to the amount of CO2 emitted, everyone cuts the pie differently.

Having said that, I wanted to share an important source made since writing this. The most important thing (movie, show, website, explanation) I’ve seen in a long time is http://www.StoryofStuff.com. It very clearly connects the dots between environmental degradation, political corruption/voter apathy, corporate control and our collective moral decay. Think of it as the non-sci-fi version of the Matrix or They Live, laying out “the meaning of life” in consumer-driven USA (Canada, I think you count here too).

Second is a blog I’ve been following: No Impact Man, noimpactman.typepad.com about trying to live with no impact. And just to respond to Jacob’s comment questioning global warming (though my apologies for not reading your citations beforehand), I’ll link to here:
http://noimpactman.typepad.com/blog/2008/03/why-the-debate.html

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]]> By: Daniel Harbecke http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-55229 Daniel Harbecke Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:38:33 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-55229 Sorry - should cite my source for those numbers:http://www.unwto.org/facts/eng/vision.htm Sorry – should cite my source for those numbers:http://www.unwto.org/facts/eng/vision.htm

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]]> By: Daniel Harbecke http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-54868 Daniel Harbecke Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:05:14 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-54868 While I agree that cost influences frequency, it may not be accurate to say that they're the same. The road to climate catastrophe could be paved as easily with extended vacation time and higher salaries as with cheaper airfare. It's the practice, not the price. If you're a frequent flyer for work, the cost of the flight is is trivial compared to how often you're flying. They need you on the ground to do what you're doing, not in the air: it's often better just to keep someone abroad than to keep them going back and forth. Kudos to you, Chris, in drawing attention to something we really need to focus on yesterday. Not they, WE. By 2020, 1.6 billion people are estimated to be going abroad. Your article reminds us that this planet just can't support that kind of pollution. Something must happen to change the trend. Either we do it "with the lights on," or it'll be done for us when we hit the wall. While I agree that cost influences frequency, it may not be accurate to say that they’re the same. The road to climate catastrophe could be paved as easily with extended vacation time and higher salaries as with cheaper airfare. It’s the practice, not the price.

If you’re a frequent flyer for work, the cost of the flight is is trivial compared to how often you’re flying. They need you on the ground to do what you’re doing, not in the air: it’s often better just to keep someone abroad than to keep them going back and forth.

Kudos to you, Chris, in drawing attention to something we really need to focus on yesterday. Not they, WE. By 2020, 1.6 billion people are estimated to be going abroad. Your article reminds us that this planet just can’t support that kind of pollution.

Something must happen to change the trend. Either we do it “with the lights on,” or it’ll be done for us when we hit the wall.

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]]> By: Haldane Dodd http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-54854 Haldane Dodd Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:22:45 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-54854 This discussion is a real insight into the predicament travellers are finding themselves in when it comes to making decisions about reducing their carbon emissions. There are other travel choices out there but, like you say, they’re not always a desirable alternative. Regarding aviation, Chris is correct that the industry is responsible for around 3% of global greenhouse gas emissions (and 2% of CO2 emissions alone) but this does have to be put into perspective against other elements like electricity generation (at 35%), road transport (18%) and deforestation (25%). I actually work at the Airports Council International and can tell you that the industry has a commitment to reducing its already small footprint – with a lot of new technology and operating procedures. Changes that are making a real difference. There’s a lot of information on www.enviro.aero you may find interesting. I guess what it comes down to for me is personal choices - Greg Wesson talked about his experience with rail. Luckily in Europe, we have a very good rail network. But that option does not exist in many parts of the world or for journeys of over a certain number of hours. It then comes down to using the best form of transport available to you. Of course, there is also the personal option of offsetting your travel impact by investing in energy efficiency projects or rainforest protection as I have done. This discussion is a real insight into the predicament travellers are finding themselves in when it comes to making decisions about reducing their carbon emissions. There are other travel choices out there but, like you say, they’re not always a desirable alternative.

Regarding aviation, Chris is correct that the industry is responsible for around 3% of global greenhouse gas emissions (and 2% of CO2 emissions alone) but this does have to be put into perspective against other elements like electricity generation (at 35%), road transport (18%) and deforestation (25%).

I actually work at the Airports Council International and can tell you that the industry has a commitment to reducing its already small footprint – with a lot of new technology and operating procedures. Changes that are making a real difference. There’s a lot of information on http://www.enviro.aero you may find interesting.

I guess what it comes down to for me is personal choices – Greg Wesson talked about his experience with rail. Luckily in Europe, we have a very good rail network. But that option does not exist in many parts of the world or for journeys of over a certain number of hours. It then comes down to using the best form of transport available to you. Of course, there is also the personal option of offsetting your travel impact by investing in energy efficiency projects or rainforest protection as I have done.

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]]> By: Marilyn Terrell http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-54826 Marilyn Terrell Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:59:07 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-54826 Thank you Chris for taking the time to do this detailed appraisal of your travel choices. But don't beat yourself up over it. At least you're honest, not hypocritical or self-deluded, like those celebrities who moan about climate change yet don't change their own travel habits. Which makes me wonder: if global warming is really an imminent and cataclysmic problem, why aren't more climate change spokespeople ACTING like it is? Thank you Chris for taking the time to do this detailed appraisal of your travel choices. But don’t beat yourself up over it. At least you’re honest, not hypocritical or self-deluded, like those celebrities who moan about climate change yet don’t change their own travel habits. Which makes me wonder: if global warming is really an imminent and cataclysmic problem, why aren’t more climate change spokespeople ACTING like it is?

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]]> By: Jacob http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-54779 Jacob Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:59:33 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-54779 A good point at the end--traveling is always less "green" than staying put. As far a business goes, I think Cisco is going to save the world. Once upon a time, salesmen delighted in taking constant, unnecessary, company-funded flights to "woo" customers and "maintain business relationships". Now these same businessmen are lamenting company cutbacks and high-speed video conferencing. But before I start spanking myself for being a bad boy about carbon emissions, I want the IPCC to speak to discrepancies in their computer models (specifically, their model's inability to recreate what has already occurred) and Professor James White's 2000 finding that showed a similar temperature/sea level escalation 19,000 years ago (long before the rise of the Cadillac Escalade). http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/dec2007/cloudy_outlook.html http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2000/538.html I'll compost, drive a compact car, and take a train when necessary. There's no doubt that our greenhouse gas emission have negative impacts on our ability to survive on Earth, but I'm not buying 100% into the belief that my oil-consuming ways are the only cause for rising temperatures. Maybe people who own coastal homes should move inland a bit. And those smarmy Polar Bears have had it coming for a while. ;) A good point at the end–traveling is always less “green” than staying put.

As far a business goes, I think Cisco is going to save the world. Once upon a time, salesmen delighted in taking constant, unnecessary, company-funded flights to “woo” customers and “maintain business relationships”. Now these same businessmen are lamenting company cutbacks and high-speed video conferencing.

But before I start spanking myself for being a bad boy about carbon emissions, I want the IPCC to speak to discrepancies in their computer models (specifically, their model’s inability to recreate what has already occurred) and Professor James White’s 2000 finding that showed a similar temperature/sea level escalation 19,000 years ago (long before the rise of the Cadillac Escalade).

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/dec2007/cloudy_outlook.html
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2000/538.html

I’ll compost, drive a compact car, and take a train when necessary. There’s no doubt that our greenhouse gas emission have negative impacts on our ability to survive on Earth, but I’m not buying 100% into the belief that my oil-consuming ways are the only cause for rising temperatures.

Maybe people who own coastal homes should move inland a bit. And those smarmy Polar Bears have had it coming for a while. ;)

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]]> By: Greg Wesson http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/comment-page-1/#comment-54766 Greg Wesson Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:41:32 +0000 http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/02/21/why-the-road-to-climate-catastrophe-is-paved-with-cheap-flights/#comment-54766 I struggle with the same issue. I fly a lot for work, and have started to buy carbon offsets for the flights I take, though I do think it's a cop out - instead of changing my travel patterns, I buy my way out of them. You mentioned the puncuality of the trains as being a big issues. Another problem with the trains in North America is the scheduling and frequency of trains. In the summer of 2007, I had to travel from Toronto to Detroit a number of times. The distance between these two cities is a straight 370 kilometers along. It's a 4 hour train trip or an hour long flight, but when you add in the time to get to and from the airports, clear security and immigration and all, it's about an even amount of time. Via Rail runs trains down to Windsor, Ontario, but the departures are too late in the morning to get me to Detroit on Monday mornings in time for work. If instead of having the train leaving at 7:50 am and arriving in Windsor at 11:30, if the train left Toronto at 6:00 am and arrived in Windsor at 9:40 am, that would be a very useable proposition. But as the train leaves too late and because I don't have a car (trying to reduce my carbon footprint by taking public transit), I ended up flying Air Canada into Windsor, and taking a combination of taxis and buses between the Windsor airport and my workplace in downtown Detroit. If Via rail had more than 4 trips a day, the train would be a much more viable option for business travellers like myself. I struggle with the same issue. I fly a lot for work, and have started to buy carbon offsets for the flights I take, though I do think it’s a cop out – instead of changing my travel patterns, I buy my way out of them.

You mentioned the puncuality of the trains as being a big issues. Another problem with the trains in North America is the scheduling and frequency of trains. In the summer of 2007, I had to travel from Toronto to Detroit a number of times.

The distance between these two cities is a straight 370 kilometers along. It’s a 4 hour train trip or an hour long flight, but when you add in the time to get to and from the airports, clear security and immigration and all, it’s about an even amount of time.

Via Rail runs trains down to Windsor, Ontario, but the departures are too late in the morning to get me to Detroit on Monday mornings in time for work. If instead of having the train leaving at 7:50 am and arriving in Windsor at 11:30, if the train left Toronto at 6:00 am and arrived in Windsor at 9:40 am, that would be a very useable proposition.

But as the train leaves too late and because I don’t have a car (trying to reduce my carbon footprint by taking public transit), I ended up flying Air Canada into Windsor, and taking a combination of taxis and buses between the Windsor airport and my workplace in downtown Detroit.

If Via rail had more than 4 trips a day, the train would be a much more viable option for business travellers like myself.

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