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	<title>Comments on: The Real Story Behind The Thomas Kohnstamm Affair</title>
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		<title>By: Tim Patterson</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61853</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Patterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/?p=537#comment-61853</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thoughtful comments everyone - although Dzof, you&#039;re right - my follow-up was not meant as an apology.  

Ferdinand, thanks for sharing your opinion.  I agree that better integration of print and online travel guides is an excellent idea, one that publishers should pursue.  What about a guidebook without much in the way of specific listings?  It&#039;s listings that take up the most effort, after all, and are most subject to change.  If guidebooks were more focused on background info (and written by local experts), travelers could learn about the history, geography and cultural context of their destination with the guidebook, but research specific guest-houses and such online, at an affiliated site with an interactive component.

There&#039;s also room for books like the excellent &quot;To Asia With Love&quot; series (I&#039;m a contributor to the new Japan book), which tap the collective knowledge of local experts to give lush, detailed descriptions of truly special experiences, rather than just listing 20 word blurbs about restaurants and hotels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughtful comments everyone &#8211; although Dzof, you&#8217;re right &#8211; my follow-up was not meant as an apology.  </p>
<p>Ferdinand, thanks for sharing your opinion.  I agree that better integration of print and online travel guides is an excellent idea, one that publishers should pursue.  What about a guidebook without much in the way of specific listings?  It&#8217;s listings that take up the most effort, after all, and are most subject to change.  If guidebooks were more focused on background info (and written by local experts), travelers could learn about the history, geography and cultural context of their destination with the guidebook, but research specific guest-houses and such online, at an affiliated site with an interactive component.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also room for books like the excellent &#8220;To Asia With Love&#8221; series (I&#8217;m a contributor to the new Japan book), which tap the collective knowledge of local experts to give lush, detailed descriptions of truly special experiences, rather than just listing 20 word blurbs about restaurants and hotels.
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		<title>By: Ferdinand Harmsen</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61817</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferdinand Harmsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/?p=537#comment-61817</guid>
		<description>Thank you Tim for bringing the discussion about Thomas Kohnstamm to a higher level. The real question is indeed about what the underlying developments are. Instead of discussing one symptom of them.

The only thing we can learn from the affair itself is that travel guide writers can write background articles about destinations without visiting them. And so far Lonely Planet has not found that the guides Thomas wrote for are compromised in any way. Maybe the writing is not compromised, but the public trust in the author and the publisher definitely is.

As you write in your post, the more relevant issue at stake is the question why the overall quality of traditional printed travel guides is in decline. You mention two reasons. The first one is the fact that publishers rely more and more on eager inexperienced writers. The second one you mention is the gap between research an publication and the update frequency of traditional printed guides, which leads to out dated information in them.

I am not sure if, underpaid and  inexperienced writers are the real problem. They might do a lot of copying from other resources, but as everyone knows that has been a practice for ages already in travel guide publishing. I think the real problem is the fact that they work alone and can hardly be checked. Even Lonely Planet admitted this in their response to the affair. The writing and checking process of traditional printed travel is not transparent enough, which leads to a lack of trust among users of the guides.

On the second reason, the gap between research an publication and the update frequency of traditional printed guides in an ever faster changing world, I fully agree with you.

You say that the real story behind this affair is the decline of traditional printed guidebooks and the rise of interactive on-line alternatives. But the question is if the one will replace the other. Don&#039;t you ditch the printed travel guides to fast?

During ones travels and also after them, printed guides are a very nice medium. They can travel with you and you can keep them as a trophy after your trip. Digital media can&#039;t do that.

I personally believe that a better integration of on-line and print activities would lead to solutions for all challenges for travel guide publishers mentioned above. It could even offer more advantages.

The fact that most travel guide writers are working alone and cannot be checked enough has been solved already by several collaborative travel guides. They use a wiki-concept to facilitate several writers to work together on travel guides. The writers check each other and the whole writing and checking process is very transparent. This openness could bring back the trust among users. These collaborative travel guides are also able to update information the moment someone discovers it is no longer valid. Any serious publisher should have enough editorial experience to organize a community of authors, editors and travellers that collaborates on their travel guides in such a way.

The only problem is that it is hard to take a wiki with you while travelling. And you cannot put it on your bookshelf as a trophy the moment you return home. But this is a problem that can be solved too.  Innovative publishers should be able to combine the wiki way of gathering and maintaining  content with a printing on demand process that enables them to offer each customer a tailor-made and up to date guidebook for his next trip.

So the future may not be now yet, but it should not be far way. And maybe it will not mean a transition from printed guidebooks to on-line alternatives, but an intelligent combination of the two with the best of both worlds.

Ferdinand Harmsen
founder/chairman of WritingTravellers, an open guidebooks project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Tim for bringing the discussion about Thomas Kohnstamm to a higher level. The real question is indeed about what the underlying developments are. Instead of discussing one symptom of them.</p>
<p>The only thing we can learn from the affair itself is that travel guide writers can write background articles about destinations without visiting them. And so far Lonely Planet has not found that the guides Thomas wrote for are compromised in any way. Maybe the writing is not compromised, but the public trust in the author and the publisher definitely is.</p>
<p>As you write in your post, the more relevant issue at stake is the question why the overall quality of traditional printed travel guides is in decline. You mention two reasons. The first one is the fact that publishers rely more and more on eager inexperienced writers. The second one you mention is the gap between research an publication and the update frequency of traditional printed guides, which leads to out dated information in them.</p>
<p>I am not sure if, underpaid and  inexperienced writers are the real problem. They might do a lot of copying from other resources, but as everyone knows that has been a practice for ages already in travel guide publishing. I think the real problem is the fact that they work alone and can hardly be checked. Even Lonely Planet admitted this in their response to the affair. The writing and checking process of traditional printed travel is not transparent enough, which leads to a lack of trust among users of the guides.</p>
<p>On the second reason, the gap between research an publication and the update frequency of traditional printed guides in an ever faster changing world, I fully agree with you.</p>
<p>You say that the real story behind this affair is the decline of traditional printed guidebooks and the rise of interactive on-line alternatives. But the question is if the one will replace the other. Don&#8217;t you ditch the printed travel guides to fast?</p>
<p>During ones travels and also after them, printed guides are a very nice medium. They can travel with you and you can keep them as a trophy after your trip. Digital media can&#8217;t do that.</p>
<p>I personally believe that a better integration of on-line and print activities would lead to solutions for all challenges for travel guide publishers mentioned above. It could even offer more advantages.</p>
<p>The fact that most travel guide writers are working alone and cannot be checked enough has been solved already by several collaborative travel guides. They use a wiki-concept to facilitate several writers to work together on travel guides. The writers check each other and the whole writing and checking process is very transparent. This openness could bring back the trust among users. These collaborative travel guides are also able to update information the moment someone discovers it is no longer valid. Any serious publisher should have enough editorial experience to organize a community of authors, editors and travellers that collaborates on their travel guides in such a way.</p>
<p>The only problem is that it is hard to take a wiki with you while travelling. And you cannot put it on your bookshelf as a trophy the moment you return home. But this is a problem that can be solved too.  Innovative publishers should be able to combine the wiki way of gathering and maintaining  content with a printing on demand process that enables them to offer each customer a tailor-made and up to date guidebook for his next trip.</p>
<p>So the future may not be now yet, but it should not be far way. And maybe it will not mean a transition from printed guidebooks to on-line alternatives, but an intelligent combination of the two with the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>Ferdinand Harmsen<br />
founder/chairman of WritingTravellers, an open guidebooks project.
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		<title>By: RIkki</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61766</link>
		<dc:creator>RIkki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Daniel, after having followed the postings and comments, and reading how fired up you were (&#039;course, you were not alone), and then reading your last post, i have to give you kudos for your maturity and humility if you may.  And to me, that was worth jumping in, after just observing from the beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, after having followed the postings and comments, and reading how fired up you were (&#8217;course, you were not alone), and then reading your last post, i have to give you kudos for your maturity and humility if you may.  And to me, that was worth jumping in, after just observing from the beginning.
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		<title>By: Daniel Harbecke</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61667</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Harbecke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For my part: I&#039;m sorry the guy got hammered, and I&#039;m sorry I added to it where he didn&#039;t deserve it.  I&#039;m very sorry (re: sympathetic) Thomas got death threats.  I&#039;m NOT sorry for getting angry in the first place.

Imagine the guidebook of the future: published by companies who don&#039;t care, written by writers who make up facts, purchased by travelers who don&#039;t use them, and everyone wonders why travel writing isn&#039;t taken seriously.  Is this the Glorious Future already?  Include me out.

Look, I know guidebooks get shoddy, researchers get lazy, yadda yadda yadda.  This isn&#039;t news.  When some guy comes off as proud he did it, why should I laugh?

Sure, sure - you&#039;re the Ubertraveler.  You never needed a guidebook in your life.  Dysentery just makes you giggle.  &quot;Keepin&#039; it real, brother.&quot;  Well good for you, Tarzan.  I&#039;ve been through around 30 countries in 4 years &quot;the Slow Way&quot; too, and I still use guidebooks.  Apparently, so do enough people to keep LP, Fodor&#039;s and the rest in business.  Please, tell me we&#039;re not dredging up the T/T Distinction crap again.  Please?

If travel writers have got no problem getting paid to write nothing but spectacular bullshit for a living, why bother pretending anymore?   If this is what it all boils down to, why would Thomas even set the record straight?  He should just stick with the Elite out there who&#039;re saying &quot;Grow up, kiddies, this is how the world works&quot; with a condescending smile.

When something threatens what matters to you, you protest it.  You don&#039;t send death threats, but you have every right to get angry.  You get out the picket signs and you say NO.  And if it turns out to be a false alarm, you apologize to the poor guy and hope there&#039;s better communication in the future.  But if anyone thinks I&#039;m going to apologize for helping blow the whistle, I invite you to find, or make the time, to get in line and kiss my ass.

Thomas, if you&#039;re out there: I&#039;m real sorry it came down on you if it wasn&#039;t deserved.  If LP kicked this storm up, you got shafted and I&#039;m sorry for my part in that.  I&#039;m glad you got your side across.  Now let&#039;s dirt nap this whole thing and get a beer.  I&#039;m buying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For my part: I&#8217;m sorry the guy got hammered, and I&#8217;m sorry I added to it where he didn&#8217;t deserve it.  I&#8217;m very sorry (re: sympathetic) Thomas got death threats.  I&#8217;m NOT sorry for getting angry in the first place.</p>
<p>Imagine the guidebook of the future: published by companies who don&#8217;t care, written by writers who make up facts, purchased by travelers who don&#8217;t use them, and everyone wonders why travel writing isn&#8217;t taken seriously.  Is this the Glorious Future already?  Include me out.</p>
<p>Look, I know guidebooks get shoddy, researchers get lazy, yadda yadda yadda.  This isn&#8217;t news.  When some guy comes off as proud he did it, why should I laugh?</p>
<p>Sure, sure &#8211; you&#8217;re the Ubertraveler.  You never needed a guidebook in your life.  Dysentery just makes you giggle.  &#8220;Keepin&#8217; it real, brother.&#8221;  Well good for you, Tarzan.  I&#8217;ve been through around 30 countries in 4 years &#8220;the Slow Way&#8221; too, and I still use guidebooks.  Apparently, so do enough people to keep LP, Fodor&#8217;s and the rest in business.  Please, tell me we&#8217;re not dredging up the T/T Distinction crap again.  Please?</p>
<p>If travel writers have got no problem getting paid to write nothing but spectacular bullshit for a living, why bother pretending anymore?   If this is what it all boils down to, why would Thomas even set the record straight?  He should just stick with the Elite out there who&#8217;re saying &#8220;Grow up, kiddies, this is how the world works&#8221; with a condescending smile.</p>
<p>When something threatens what matters to you, you protest it.  You don&#8217;t send death threats, but you have every right to get angry.  You get out the picket signs and you say NO.  And if it turns out to be a false alarm, you apologize to the poor guy and hope there&#8217;s better communication in the future.  But if anyone thinks I&#8217;m going to apologize for helping blow the whistle, I invite you to find, or make the time, to get in line and kiss my ass.</p>
<p>Thomas, if you&#8217;re out there: I&#8217;m real sorry it came down on you if it wasn&#8217;t deserved.  If LP kicked this storm up, you got shafted and I&#8217;m sorry for my part in that.  I&#8217;m glad you got your side across.  Now let&#8217;s dirt nap this whole thing and get a beer.  I&#8217;m buying.
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		<title>By: Dzof</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61640</link>
		<dc:creator>Dzof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 10:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It sounds like an apology, but without it really being one...

As experienced and well-informed members of the world yourself, you should know that although a cover can describe a book quite well, it&#039;s another thing to judge by it. So you ranted, and raved, and were a little wrong. And you acknowledged all that. But without actually saying &#039;sorry&#039;.

What the heck. Let&#039;s just say you apologised and be done with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like an apology, but without it really being one&#8230;</p>
<p>As experienced and well-informed members of the world yourself, you should know that although a cover can describe a book quite well, it&#8217;s another thing to judge by it. So you ranted, and raved, and were a little wrong. And you acknowledged all that. But without actually saying &#8217;sorry&#8217;.</p>
<p>What the heck. Let&#8217;s just say you apologised and be done with it.
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		<title>By: Scribetrotter</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61625</link>
		<dc:creator>Scribetrotter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t agree that the days of the print guidebook are gone... I&#039;m all for hybrid research. I go online to get the latest information and tips, what&#039;s hot, what&#039;s not, special deals and good meals. For the rest, I still love my guidebook, in print. Although I do sometimes download updated guides onto my iPod, for my travels there&#039;s still nothing that beats the Book (not necessarily LP - depends on the country), with folded back pages, scribbled notes and squiggles and highlights. Call me old-fashioned but I have yet to set off with dowloads and updates only...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree that the days of the print guidebook are gone&#8230; I&#8217;m all for hybrid research. I go online to get the latest information and tips, what&#8217;s hot, what&#8217;s not, special deals and good meals. For the rest, I still love my guidebook, in print. Although I do sometimes download updated guides onto my iPod, for my travels there&#8217;s still nothing that beats the Book (not necessarily LP &#8211; depends on the country), with folded back pages, scribbled notes and squiggles and highlights. Call me old-fashioned but I have yet to set off with dowloads and updates only&#8230;
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61607</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great rounding-out to a ridiculous scandal. I still found it to be in bad taste for him to call Eva&#039;s integrity into question, but c&#039;est la vie.

I actually agree with a lot of point in Josh&#039;s (above) writeup as well.

Fodor&#039;s and such appeal to...well...Tim&#039;s mom and similar. :) My father-in-law swears by Rick Steve&#039;s and another &quot;upper class&quot; guide that slips my mind. These are people with lots more disposable income than my broke ass, who will pay a little more for a &quot;trustworthy&quot; guide. And the last I knew, RS and Fodor&#039;s were still paying their writers pretty decently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great rounding-out to a ridiculous scandal. I still found it to be in bad taste for him to call Eva&#8217;s integrity into question, but c&#8217;est la vie.</p>
<p>I actually agree with a lot of point in Josh&#8217;s (above) writeup as well.</p>
<p>Fodor&#8217;s and such appeal to&#8230;well&#8230;Tim&#8217;s mom and similar. <img src='http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  My father-in-law swears by Rick Steve&#8217;s and another &#8220;upper class&#8221; guide that slips my mind. These are people with lots more disposable income than my broke ass, who will pay a little more for a &#8220;trustworthy&#8221; guide. And the last I knew, RS and Fodor&#8217;s were still paying their writers pretty decently.
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		<title>By: Joshua Berman</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61595</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Here&#039;s my two cents, another guidebook writer contemplating the meaning of guidebooks in the post-Kohnstamm era: 

http://blog.joshuaberman.net/08-04/lonely-planet-scandal-passes-guidebooks-left-in-the-debris.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my two cents, another guidebook writer contemplating the meaning of guidebooks in the post-Kohnstamm era: </p>
<p><a href="http://blog.joshuaberman.net/08-04/lonely-planet-scandal-passes-guidebooks-left-in-the-debris.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.joshuaberman.net/08-04/lonely-planet-scandal-passes-guidebooks-left-in-the-debris.html</a>
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		<title>By: N. Chrystine Olson</title>
		<link>http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2008/04/18/the-real-story-behind-the-thomas-kohnstamm-affair/comment-page-1/#comment-61593</link>
		<dc:creator>N. Chrystine Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&#039;Nough said! Great job Tim....now on to more important tasks like planting trees and finding frogs ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Nough said! Great job Tim&#8230;.now on to more important tasks like planting trees and finding frogs <img src='http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />
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